Find out more about the Children in Scotland staff team and their areas of expertise, and get in touch.
Please note, staff will mostly be working from home for the time being. Staff can be contacted via email as normal – you can find email addresses following the staff descriptions on these pages.
Billy took up the post of Head of Services in March 2022.
He was previously Senior Policy Officer (Children’s Rights), working with the My Rights, My Say service.
Billy has worked for 20 years with and for vulnerable young people and young adults across Community, Health, Education and ASN settings.
Prior to working for Children in Scotland, Billy held service management, learning and development, personalisation, community health development and youth mentoring roles.
He is an innovative person-centred practitioner and visual recorder who has a passion for children’s rights, engagement and research & evaluation.
Caroline took up the post of HR Manager in September 2023. She has responsibility for all people-related activities.
Caroline has worked in HR for nearly 20 years with a variety of organisations, including more than 10 years working in the charity sector where she enjoys the opportunity to make a real contribution to society. She has a wealth of generalist experience as well as specialising in Reward and Recognition and Global Mobility at the University of Edinburgh. Caroline is also a trained mediator.
Outside of work, Caroline enjoys spending time with family and friends, with a love of sea swimming and long walks with her two border collies.
Grant provides IT support to staff across the organisation, in particular, with the development of Enquire’s websites and databases. Grant developed Enquire’s suite of Filemaker databases which are now essential in the operational and reporting aspects of the service.
In addition to his Children in Scotland role, he is CEO of S'up Products Ltd. The company sells the S'up spoon – the spoon for shaky hands – that Grant created because of personal need.
Grant enjoys getting outdoors, especially if it involves any adrenaline-filled activity including skiing and water-skiing.
Angus joined Children in Scotland in September 2019 and has worked for several years as a freelance designer.
He is a member of the communications team and the Engagement and Learning department. He contributes design work and expertise across digital materials, print, events marketing, and in support of our ongoing project work and strategic aims.
Angus’s clients as a freelancer included Scottish Canals, Perth & Kinross Council, reallymoving.com, the Scottish Storytelling Centre, Museums and Heritage Highland, Get Glasgow Moving, Lightpress Design and East Perthshire Youth Alliance.
Public transport inequalities is an area of particular interest. At a practical level, Angus is concerned with encouraging the use of intuitive schematic mapping and signage and advocating for improved infrastructure in modern UK cities.
Before joining Enquire, Robert was previously Senior Project Officer on the CHANGE Project, which helped to develop childcare services and family support in the East End of Glasgow.
His involvement with Children in Scotland began in 2014, when he volunteered as a Research Mentor on Beyond4Walls – a participatory youth research project exploring young people’s experiences of Housing.
Robert’s background is in community development and he was involved in establishing community food projects that later became part of Children in Scotland’s Food, Families, Futures programme.
He is also a Participation and Engagement Associate at Children in Scotland and recently worked on the Young Media Voices project, supporting children and young people across Scotland to learn new skills, create multimedia content and share the stories that matter most to them.
Jennifer joined Enquire in January 2023, leading on Enquire’s communications strategy and stakeholder engagement.
She works to ensure the direct experiences of children, young people and families informs policy and practice development, and is also the communications lead for the Inclusion Ambassador group.
Previously, Jennifer was part of the Children in Scotland communications team where she was Editor of the member magazine for 10 years.
Prior to joining Children in Scotland in 2012, Jennifer worked for Holyrood Communications, researching, developing and delivering policy-focused conferences and seminars. She also has extensive experience developing and managing PR campaigns for leading names in the Scottish hospitality sector having previously worked as an Account Manager with a boutique PR firm.
When not at work, Jennifer can usually be found on a beach, up a hill or in a forest with her husband and two young children.
Sophie joined Children in Scotland in July 2023 as a Policy, Projects and Participation Officer. Prior to this, she was a primary school teacher with a specific interest in child-centred provision for young people with additional support needs.
Before her career in teaching, Sophie completed a bachelor’s degree in Drama and Performance where she developed a research interest in young people’s access to the arts and other extra curricular activities in Scotland. During her studies, she worked at an after school club and facilitated workshops for children at a local youth theatre.
Outside of work, Sophie enjoys cooking and travelling.
The Enquire service’s Helpline Officers listen and respond to questions and concerns from parents, carers, professionals, children and young people about additional support for learning.
The team members come from various backgrounds, including teaching, policy, support work and other advice lines.
The team undergoes an extensive induction and continuous training programme to develop their knowledge and keep up to date with developments in the law relating to additional support for learning.
0345 123 2303
Beth joined Children in Scotland as an Advice and Information Officer with Enquire in June 2021.
Previously, Beth worked directly with children and young people with additional support needs in a mainstream educational setting. This practical experience has given her a passion for supporting all children and young people to succeed.
Beth recently completed a Postgraduate Certificate in Mental Health and Education and has an English Language and History degree from the University of Glasgow.
In her spare time, Beth volunteers with the Scouts, supporting children in her local area to have fun, adventure, and contribute to their community.
Jemma joined Children in Scotland in August 2022 as Learning & Events Manager. Her role is to manage the development and delivery of our learning programme, researching and creating learning opportunities for the children’s sector.
Prior to joining Children in Scotland, Jemma worked for a number of charity/not-for-profit organisations including Playlist for Life and the University of Stirling. She has extensive experience of managing events and projects locally, nationally and internationally.
When not at work Jemma can usually be found on the beach with her two young children and her dog Beauly or planning her next adventure. As a mum with a background in education and non-executive board member with the Scouts she has a keen interest in youth participation and children’s rights.
Lynn is part of Children in Scotland’s Communications Team, with responsibility for the organisation’s digital and social media output. She also provides marketing, editing and IT support and leads on communications for specific projects.
She is currently managing our website development project, and is also actively involved with our Participation and Engagement work and work on LGBT+ equality.
Lynn joined Children in Scotland in November 2004. She has 20 years’ experience working in journalism, PR, events management, schools outreach work and charity fundraising. She has a degree in History & Scottish Historical Studies from the University of Edinburgh, and a postgraduate qualification in Journalism. She previously worked in a range of roles, including reporter and editor, for local and national newspapers and magazines.
She is a qualified yoga teacher, and enjoys practicing and teaching yoga, breathwork and meditation.
Arran joined the Children in Scotland team in August 2022 as an Assistant Policy, Projects and Participation Officer.
Prior to this, she has been a carer for the past year while completing her master’s degree in International Social Welfare.
Her main research interest is in inequalities within society and how these are reflected in the political system and policies. During her degrees, she chose to focus her research on homelessness, analysing societal attitudes towards the issue, how different political ideologies framed homelessness and how this affected the support in place.
Outside of the office, Arran is a keen dressmaker and runner.
agoodfellow@childreninscotland.org.uk
Hannah joined Enquire in September 2015. She is involved in managing Enquire’s helpline where they offer support and advice parents, carers, professionals and young people about children’s rights to support when they are struggling with their learning. She also works on Enquire’s policy and influencing work and outreach programmes.
Previously, Hannah worked with the Scottish Government in education policy and as an employment support worker for young adults with learning difficulties. For three years she chaired a young people’s group at the Sick Children’s Hospital in Edinburgh – helping make sure the group’s views and experiences where taken into account.
Hannah studied Social Anthropology at Aberdeen University. In her spare time she writes, plays board games and enjoys sitting under trees with a good book.
Marie joined Children in Scotland in May 2022 to take up post as Senior Policy Officer (Children’s Rights) for the My Rights My Say service.
Over the past 15 years she has worked to promote children’s rights through lobbying and advocacy posts both in Scotland, Denmark, Kenya and the Netherlands. The main focus of her work has been to promote the rights of children with additional support needs and to support children to share their views in all decision making processes that affect them. She has been involved in various projects aimed at creating awareness of the UNCRC and children’s rights both on international, national and local level.
Marie holds a degree in Aesthetics and culture and has used her skills to develop creative toolkits to support children with additional support needs to share their views in child-centred and unique ways that are meaningful to the individual child. She will be starting a Master’s Programme in Children’s Participation and Leadership in September 2022 with the University of Highlands & Islands.
Valerie is part of Children in Scotland’s Leadership Team. She is responsible for Central Services’ functions and driving the sustainability of Children in Scotland through robust and proactive financial management.
Valerie is a fellow of Chartered Accountants Ireland.
Access to Childcare Fund Lead
Before joining the Access to Childcare Fund (ACF), Alison was previously Senior Policy and Participation Officer on the CHANGE project, working to improve access to childcare and family support in the East of Glasgow.
This experience has helped inform how she supports the ACF projects across Scotland to provide childcare solutions enabling more accessible and affordable childcare for families and to helping to reduce barriers.
She has more than 30 years’ experience of working within the Early Years Sector including in development and training and internal verification.
As well as being qualified in Early Years, Alison has a BA (Hons) in Humanities and a Postgraduate Qualification in Strategic Thinking: Systems for managing change.
In her spare time, she enjoys going to antique/vintage fairs and book groups.
Finance and Central Services Officer
Angela is part of the Central Services team working on administration related tasks within the team and support to the Board of Directors. She joined Children in Scotland in June 2018 and worked previously on the administrator for the Early Learning and Childcare Inclusion fund, which Children in Scotland administered on behalf of the Scottish Government.
Angela has worked in administration and finance in the voluntary sector for a number of years, which included working in community education centres and, more recently, working with IDEAS, a development education organisation, where she administered the Development Awareness Mini-Grants which IDEAS administered on behalf of DFID.
Mark took up the role of IT and Digital Manager with Children in Scotland in September 2022.
He previously worked for the Chartered Banker Institute as Head of Innovation, leading the digital transformation of the organisation, and has more than 30 years of experience in IT, charities and membership organisations.
Trained as a Spiritual Director and with an interest in Wellbeing, Mark also enjoys baking.
Alice joined Children in Scotland’s Communications Team in April 2023, and focuses on content production for both the bi-annual Insight members’ publication and magazine web pages.
With 10 years’ experience as a writer and journalist, Alice has worked for a range of regional and national print newspapers and magazines, as well as digital titles and social media platforms. Working on a variety of topics, spanning front page splashes to celebrity interviews, magazine journalism to news reporting, her writing focuses on finding the human side to every story. Prior to joining Children in Scotland, she was a staff feature writer at The Sunday Post for almost five years, and continues to work as a freelance journalist.
Outwith work, she likes to read, practice yoga and swim, but mostly watches too much TV. She also has a City & Guilds qualification in floristry, and often designs bouquets for friends and family.
Tracy focuses on developing new relationships and securing a sustainable future for the organisation. She is also the key contact for our members.
Tracy has significant experience in membership support and development through her previous experience at the Royal Zoological Society of Scotland, where she was Assistant Development Manager. Before joining Children in Scotland she was Head of Marketing and Membership at the Scottish Business Resilience Centre.
Lucy works as part of the Enquire team and has a focus on raising awareness of children’s rights to be supported and listened to, in particular those with additional support needs. This includes engaging with children and young people and generating opportunities for them to have effective and fulfilling participation in Enquire’s work – including the Reach website, social media and the My Rights, My Say service.
Lucy’s background mainly lies in education. She joined Children in Scotland in August 2018, bringing with her a range of experience from her previous role as a teacher, where she specialised in history. For many years she has championed children’s rights in schools, which she continues to do in her current role.
Georgia joined Children in Scotland as an Administrative Co-ordinator in September 2023, supporting children’s services by providing efficient administration support.Georgia left her position as a children's English teacher to pursue a Master's degree in Human Rights and Diplomacy in Scotland. She was selected by the Master's programme for an internship opportunity with the Mental Health and Psychosocial Support (MHPSS) Team at UNICEF. She provided administrative support as well as research insight for projects that provided mental health care and psychosocial support to children who went through humanitarian crises.
Additionally, Georgia holds a Bachelor's degree in Diplomacy and International Relations and has been involved in student movements and social advocacy throughout her education.Georgia is passionate about expanding and developing children’s rights into policies and child care. She volunteers with the Scottish Refugee Council, helping to coordinate and arrange for activities for children.Outside of work, Georgia enjoys playing Dungeons and Dragons and discovering the best boba tea combination.
Cat joined Children in Scotland in January 2019 with a strong background in education that focused on professional learning, community engagement and environmental education. She has a keen interest in equality and sustainability.
Previously, she has worked on community education programmes that supported asylum seekers, refugees, the Traveller community and young people.
Cat is a board member of Edinburgh Remakery, an award winning environmental social enterprise.
Having worked in Australia, Poland, Ireland and the UK, Cat brings a range of international experience to the team.
Mohit has worked in the third sector since 2013, while he was at university completing a degree in Marketing. Within the charity sector he has worked for and supported a wide range of charities, including West of Scotland Regional Equality Council (WSREC) and GalGael.
Mohit has had varied roles working in the charity sector, including Marketing and Enterprise Officer, Marketing and Sales Administrator, Fundraising Assistant and Project Co-Ordinator.
While at WSREC Mohit also ran one of the main projects alongside his marketing role. The project was called MESS (Minority Ethnic Silver Surfers), which looked at supporting and training M.E adults over 50 in digital skills, such as how to online shop to how to use Zoom.
Currently, Mohit works at Enquire as the Communications Officer, which is a new role within the organisation. Within Enquire Mohit will be involved with the marketing and communications.
David joined Children in Scotland as Policy Manager in April 2019 and was promoted to Head of Policy, Projects and Participation in October 2023. During his time at Children in Scotland, he has overseen a wide range of short- and long-term participation and engagement projects and has led significant elements of Children in Scotland’s policy work including the development of our Manifesto for 2021-2026.David’s policy and project work at Children in Scotland has focused on a broad range of topic areas including mental health, education, family support, Brexit, the environment and the creative arts. He is passionate about children and young people’s participation and has delivered a range of engagement projects supporting those furthest from their rights to share their experiences and ideas to drive change and improve outcomes. Examples include projects working with children and young people with care experience, young people with additional support needs, and early years projects working with parents and carers with infants and very young children.David has significant experience of multi-agency working, bringing together contacts from health, education, local authorities and third sector organisations. During his time in the Early Years team at Scottish Book Trust, David managed the organisation's early intervention family support programme and led on audience development work.
Between 2019 and 2023, David was a panel member for the children’s hearings system in Edinburgh.
Lisa started with Enquire as Advice and Information Officer in August 2022.
In this role, Lisa offers advice and information on children and young people’s rights to additional support for learning.
In her previous role, Lisa worked for Support in Mind Scotland’s Distress Brief Intervention Team, which is based in the Highlands. Lisa provided emotional and practical advice and support to people experiencing distress. Her COSCA qualification in counselling skills came into good use for this job and she enjoys using a person centred approach in her work.
Outside of work, Lisa enjoys the busy life of being a mum, running and almost anything that involves music.
Simon is part of Children in Scotland’s Leadership Team and manages the Engagement & Learning Department, comprising the Communications & Marketing team, Learning & Events team and the Membership Service. He also coordinates Children in Scotland’s child protection activity.
He has a keen interest in equality and diversity, particularly LGBT+ issues and led the organisation through LGBT Youth Scotland's LGBT Charter of Rights accreditation in 2018-19. He is also a member of the Social Work Cross-Party Group and SCVO’s Intermediaries Network.
Simon joined Children in Scotland in September 2015 and has 35 years' experience working in the children’s sector in various roles including volunteer, front-line practitioner, manager and consultant.
He is a qualified social worker and has undertaken extensive child protection and post-abuse therapeutic social work as well as work in residential childcare settings. He is also a qualified practice teacher with experience of the social work education field and local authority workforce development.
Outside of Children in Scotland, Simon is the Chair of Bright Light, an Edinburgh-based charity providing relationship counselling services and he spends a large amount of time chasing his dog, Alfie, around.
Finance Manager
(on maternity leave until 2024)
Madeleine is part of the Central Services team with responsibility for financial management, reporting, budgeting and fund management. She is passionate about providing a professional and high-quality finance service.
Madeleine joined Children in Scotland in April 2021. She previously worked in various finance departments within the SME sector.
Madeleine is an Association of Chartered Certified Accountants Affiliate member, and she hopes to complete the requirements of full membership within the next 18 months.
Madeleine also acts as a treasurer and board member for a not-for-profit nursery in North Edinburgh. Outside of work she is a keen crafter.
Laura has worked with Children in Scotland since 2012, in various roles. She is currently HR Officer, managing the recruitment and induction process, maintaining staff contracts and supporting the wider provision of HR services across the organisation.
She has degrees in English Literature and Law. She is currently working towards a Masters in Creative Writing, and coordinates Children in Scotland’s staff book group.
Sandra is the Mediation Manager of Resolve, Scotland’s leading Additional Support Needs mediation service which she established in 2004
Sandra manages the development, delivery and management of Resolve. She is committed to developing supportive relationships and good communication to ensure Resolve brings about positive change for practitioners, families and young people across Scotland.
Sandra has worked extensively as a practising mediator and supervisor for more than 20 years in a range of areas including family, education, intergenerational and workplace mediations across Scotland. Sandra has nationally recognised experience, knowledge and skills regarding managing and resolving conflict and the impact it can have on the people involved.
Senior Advice and Information Officer – Enquire
Mark has worked with Enquire since 2018, offering advice on children and young people’s rights to additional support for learning. As well as helping manage Enquire’s helpline, Mark contributes to Enquire’s written publications, websites and outreach work.
Mark has a Scots law degree and he worked in a variety of roles with Citizens Advice Scotland prior to joining Enquire. He was the in-court adviser for Edinburgh Sheriff Court and a policy officer for rights and redress issues. He has also worked as a mentor to young people facing challenges with their learning and was a children’s panel member in Edinburgh for three and a half years.
In his spare time, Mark enjoys dragging himself up Munros before cooling off with some outdoor swimming.
Alison supports Mediation Manager Sandra Mitchell with the development, delivery and management of the mediation service. She is the primary liaison and contact person for all referrals to Resolve and has a good knowledge of additional support for learning legislation and the Scottish education landscape.
Prior to joining Children in Scotland Alison worked for several third sector organisations and has many years’ experience of fundraising, project management and administration.
Hannah joined Children in Scotland as Assistant Policy Officer for the Supporting the Third Sector Project (STTS) in April 2023.
Previously, Hannah was the Elections Project Officer at Exeter City Council for the Devon and Cornwall Police and Crime Commissioner Election, Devon County Council Elections and the Exeter City Council Elections. Following the elections she remained at Exeter City Council undertaking various administrative roles until relocating to Scotland.
Hannah has a Master of Arts degree in Public Policy from Swansea University, achieving a Distinction. Additionally she undertook a Bachelor of Arts degree in Politics at the University of Exeter, achieving a 1st Class with Honours. Throughout her studies she placed a focus on equality and researching the impact that policy has particularly on children and women's rights.
Away from work, Hannah is an avid book collector and reader who also enjoys experiencing the diversity of music and theatre that the area has to offer.
Arran joined Children in Scotland in April 2023, as a Learning & Events Officer.
Arran has 10 years' experience working in education, primarily in ESOL. She has taught in South Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, Taiwan, Ireland, and the UK. She has experience working with students from early years to adults.
Arran has an undergraduate degree in Film and Television Studies and a Masters of Education in Children’s Literature and Literacies for which she received a distinction. During her Masters, her research focused on bridging the gap between home literacy practices and school literacy practices with the aim of promoting equity and equality for young learners. Developing ways of enhancing the literacy experiences of young learners is her passion. She is currently also studying Digital Marketing.
When not at work, Arran enjoys practicing yoga, and expressing herself through art, including pottery, stained glass, and photography. She also loves cooking food from the countries she has lived in.
Chris’s role focus on managing and delivering a range of participation and engagement focused projects including the Inclusion Ambassadors and the National Suicide Prevention Youth Advisory Group. Chris also has a key role in our policy work including supporting the implementation of key manifesto calls.
Chris has a Masters in Health Inequalities and Public Policy from the University of Edinburgh and has previously worked in an after school club setting and with adults with learning disabilities.
Chris is also a keen cricketer and captains a team at his club.
Monica (they/them) joined Children in Scotland in August 2021 as the Learning & Events Coordinator. They have worked in the events industry for nearly a decade within higher education and are excited to pivot to the third sector. They have a vested interest in intersectionality, equality, and sustainability.
Originally from Oregon, USA, Monica studied cultural & creative entrepreneurship at Goldsmiths College in London, completing their MA in 2011. Using a community-focused approach, they’ve adapted that creative thinking to events logistics.
Outside work, Monica writes novels, dances, and spends as much time outside as the Scottish weather will allow.
Parisa joined Children in Scotland in January 2021 as Policy, Projects and Participation Officer.
Before joining the organisation, she worked at a busy child law centre on projects that help young people experiencing homelessness and those who have left the care system and also worked in their Policy Team. She previously worked in political offices in Holyrood and Westminster carrying out research and casework. These roles allowed her to appreciate the importance of well-informed and beneficial policy in achieving positive change.
Parisa studied Law at Durham University and completed an LLM in General Law at the University of Edinburgh in 2017. Through her pro bono experience as a Volunteer Advocate for parents whose children are involved in the care system, she developed an interest in family law and children’s rights.
In her spare time, she is learning Farsi to communicate with her Iranian family, she enjoys reading and spends a disproportionate amount of time petting dogs.
Julie joined Children in Scotland in May 2023, as Communications & Marketing Manager.
Julie began her career nearly two decades ago in the charitable sector. After completing a BA (Hons) at Trinity College Dublin, she took up a fundraising role in the national health service in Ireland, later moving to Edinburgh to study for her MA in Marketing.
She has held communications and marketing roles both in agencies and at the Institute of Chartered Foresters, the national professional body for the forestry sector, where she helped grow and diversify their membership. Prior to joining Children in Scotland she also spent more than six years managing communications, fundraising and policy campaigns in the animal welfare sector, in her role as Communications Manager at Edinburgh Dog and Cat Home.
When she’s not at work, Julie loves to spend time with her two children and her springer spaniel, Albie.
Lizz joined Children in Scotland in September 2021 as a Learning & Events Officer. The key focus of her role is to plan and support the development of learning and training opportunities for the children’s sector workforce.
Previously, Lizz worked as a secondary school teacher in and around London. Her last teaching role was English Lead at a school in a low-secure CAMHS hospital for young people sectioned under the Mental Health Act. She has a keen interest in youth participation and children’s rights as well as education, health, and social welfare reforms.
She studied English & Scottish Literature at the University of Edinburgh and writes in her spare time.
Dr. Judith Turbyne became Chief Executive of Children in Scotland in August 2021.
She has spent most of her professional life working in and with the charity sector. For much of that time she worked in international development, with charities challenging global poverty and inequality. She worked in Latin America and the Caribbean for many years, in local frontline organisations and with multinational funders, before moving to Dublin to work as the CEO of Progressio Ireland.
Judith returned home to Scotland in 2013 as Head of Engagement with the Scottish Charity Regulator where she has had the pleasure of working with many charities across Scotland. She is currently the Deputy Chair of the Corra Foundation.
She has a PhD from the University of Bath which looked at empowerment in development. Aside from her wonderful friends and family, the things that make her most happy are mountains, music, running, cricket and a good book.
Sophie joined Children in Scotland in July 2023. Previously, Sophie spent three years working for the Scottish Chamber Orchestra where she had the opportunity to work across its marketing activities and develop the Orchestra’s first ever digital concert season.
Sophie has ten years' experience managing projects for a number of culture organisations and charities including VisitScotland, RSPB Scotland and the National Trust for Scotland.
Outside of work, Sophie enjoys spending time with her family, fair-weather running and playing music.
Annie has been working in the Enquire team since 2017, stepping into the role of Advice and Information Manager in 2022. Her role involves overall responsibility for the delivery and quality of the advice and information that the service provides, including oversight of the helpline and our publications and website.
Previously Annie has worked in a range of roles in autism and family support organisations, including at the University of Strathclyde working on the delivery of the Scottish Strategy for Autism and as a manager in an outreach support service for autistic adults.
Outside of work Annie enjoys spending time by the seaside, reading and crafts. She is passionate about equality and human rights, with a particular interest in LGBTQ+ issues.
Jacqueline is part of Enquire’s communications team leading on all aspects of design with a particular focus on digital and print materials.
Passionate about the power of good design to aid communication, Jacqueline works with the team to ensure the presentation of Enquire’s information is clear and accessible to parents, professionals and children and young people.
Jacqueline studied architecture for three years and has an HND in photography. She also worked as a freelance photographer for several years and ran her own art and photography gallery.
Momo joined Children in Scotland in October 2023 as Administrative Assistant in the Learning & Events team.
Momo has more than seven years' experience in the education field. She worked in Thailand for two years as a Mandarin teacher before coming to the UK for her postgraduate study. In 2021, she achieved her master’s degree in Language Education at the University of Edinburgh. Previously, she also worked as a childcare support worker. Supporting children and young people to flourish and grow as individuals has always been her passion.
Outside of work, Momo enjoys the great outdoors, doing things like cycling, hiking and camping.